Hey guys, sorry you feel that way about the work. It was suppose to be a very simple Web site, due to the fact that it was all about the content. The text is the most important part, and there is a lot of it. So simplifying and showcasing was the ideal strategy. Sorry about it not being “unique” — but I think it clearly communicates the idea of the Web site, and I hope that’s why it was featured. Cheers!
The site is here because it’s a beautiful piece of work. Just because there aren’t any shiny buttons or there’s no fancy JavaScript, doesn’t mean it’s not worthy of being showcased here. It has great typography, it’s clean, and most importantly, it’s perfect for what the site is trying to get across.
Jessica Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 10:42 am
I really like the layout, I think it should feel a little more like a game though. Like a flash card with the task of the day. I think the “game” would feel more rewarding if it was more interactive. :)
Jared Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I wanted to like this site and be able to stand up for its simplicity but I came across some issues…
Lengthy text, no introduction or how to play on the homepage, and lacking a good call-to-action anywhere on any page.
I have nothing against the simplicity and cleanliness of the site, but honestly I had no idea of who the site was intended for or how to get started for about 4 minutes.
This of course is just one viewers opinion. Take as you will. Best of luck.
@Michael Castilla: I’m not looking for all the beeps and whistles, but what I am looking for are sites that have taken a unique approach in their design and build. I can list a dozen sites that are similar to this example. That is not to say that it is poorly designed! It is certainly clean and the typography is wonderful. But it’s not unique.
Additionally, I broke the nav when resizing the copy.
Yea I agree with Jamie. Best Web Gallery is a site that’s supposed to display unique and innovative design. If the only reason it’s being showcased is because of the content then I think it’s here for the wrong reasons. I’m a huge fan of minimalism but I’m not really seeing anything that is unique and stands out on your site. It’s nice, don’t get me wrong, but I just don’t see anything special about it. I do like what the site is about though.
Read the about page man — you don’t even know what this Web site is about, here is what it states —
“Best Web Gallery is an inspirational gallery site where we collect a wide range of quality design websites (Flash & CSS). What is quality design means to us?”
@Jamie
The nav break is a bug, thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Well yea, you’re pretty much reiterating my point. This site exist to showcase inspirational, quality design. Now I like your site and what it’s about, but I wouldn’t go as far as to call it “inspirational, quality” design. Good content, but average design.
I don’t mean this in a bad way, but I just don’t see how someone could say work is average, when they create Web sites with 7pt font and almost 700 pixels of white space in between projects and in the footer. Then using an image with the “>” (arrow) sign that could be done with text. Now, don’t get me wrong, not trying to beat you up, I just don’t think there is room to say “average.” I’ve browsed around, you make negative comments about a lot of people’s work.. That’s not going to get you far. Sorry you feel this way about our average work.
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 12:04 am
@Patrick Algrim:
Most of the people who comment here are pretty clued in. Fairly clued, at least. When a great design pops up (e.g. BBH), everyone agrees and says “wow, this is great”, with one or two people nitpicking the small details (myself included).
Now, when a lot of people say your design doesn’t work, instead of defending it and explaining it, listen to the critique, take it and stride and do better next time.
You are designing for the viewer, not for yourself. And if your viewers say “no thanks”, then the design has failed. Simple as that.
Frankly speaking, the site is neat, but lacks any personality. In fact, it’s quite forgettable. I opened it, looked at it, and was immediately bored by it. A good number of people said pretty much the same thing.
All the technical details are meaningless if the site doesn’t catch people’s attention, because if nobody is looking, nobody will care what you did code-wise.
P.S. The footer of the site says “P41 Studios”. If that’s your company, I kindly suggest that you change your logo icon. It’s a “P” version of Futurebrand’s logo, one of the BIGGEST brand identity companies in the world.
I opened P41 in one tab, and opened Futurebrand in the tab text to it. I mean only the best for you when I say that you can clearly see the connection.
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 12:05 am
to clarify my last sentence above:
The favicons of the two logos (P41 and Futurebrand) look like brother and sister. That is not a good thing.
Well yea, I’ve learned coding and have been making sites all of about 7 months, so I’m still getting the hang of it. How long have you been building sites? Because it seems like you’re also just getting the hang of it. With that being said, I may be new to web design but I’m not new to design. I know the difference between what looks good and what looks bad. And apparently so does everyone else commenting.
And just to clarify, the spaces are there because I used a smooth scroll to navigate through my site and I only want one element to be viewed at a time on the page. If you know a better way of pushing an element down of the screen so only one at a time is in view, without having a large padding between them, then by all means, educate me. The images with the “>” are there because the carousel viewer calls for images for the next and previous buttons.
Your next weekly challenge should be “How to handle criticism.”
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 11:03 am
@Geoff:
If your comment was intended for me, I need to clarify two things:
1) I don’t post on QBN.
2) and I am a supporter of Flash.
Now if you were intending it for somebody else, then just ignore me.
yeah Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
not a bad site. i’ve made a ton of websites that are content oriented without to many images for javascript. Good job man
Geoff Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Sorry Dude, it was directed at Pat.
Jared Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
@Patrick Algrim
Wow, you spend way to much time trying to defend your site. Just sit back and listen to the feedback. If you’re site is doing its job then you shouldn’t have to be explaining it to everyone.
Amazing how many different views of quality exist here. Even more amazing (or alarming) is the manner in which people express their opinion. I think this thread has proved a couple things to me:
Website design and the opinions of them are no different than our tastes in art/movies/food/sex/drugs/music//life/people…you catch my drift. I like movies that don’t require me to think (I do enough of that in my life), others might like mind-boggling puzzles. Folks, this is absolutely the beauty of the human race. Embrace it!
Unfortunately, differing opinions can also result in the above posts. A bunch of smack talking between people that have forgotten how to interact with each other because of differing opinions (or the fact that they can hide behind their screens). I love a good debate, but something several of you should learn is that the best way for your critique to be heard is to provide 2 compliments (no matter how small) with your 1 critique. It says to the designer “great job on these things” but “here is one thing you can do better.”
So, per the request of one poster, this week’s challenge is to take the time to genuinely review other websites, find 2 things you liked and 1 thing you think can be done better. THEN, articulate your opinion in a manner that has NO SARCASM, NO ARROGANCE and PLENTY of SINCERITY.
Sorry to those folks that do this well, you’re just caught in the cross-fire. I appreciate and value YOUR feedback. The others have a lot to learn about human interaction.
Oh and by the way, I love this website. It has done for me exactly what I wanted it to and on a very fair budget. Of course, there several things that can be done differently with more time, money, etc.
Either way, the world needs more websites that help improve our spirits. I hope you all take the time to read a couple of the challenges, perhaps even join the game. It’s easy to knock it, but have you tried it? Good Luck
Jared Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
That’s the problem. Your site is so uninspired, that it doesn’t even challenge me to read it.
I just wanna leave as soon as I have opened it. Sorry.
Ok to all, first, I am not defending my work. I am standing up for my work to people who don’t have room to give criticism. I don’t know SHIT about fashion design, so I am not going to go to a D&G fashion show and start critiquing the clothing. Anything personal I have said about the users here are because I have gone to other works and seen the negative comments you have made about EVERYTHING. Even you dudeydudedude.
About the Futurebrand thing, I actually didn’t even know of this company, and if you are building the relationship of using circles, you are really stretching some things my friend. That’s like saying Apple and Intel are the same company because they make computers.
@Geoff - it’s easy to jump on a bandwagon but it’s not easy to make a change right? The QBN thread that I read over which included a team member of mine (making the comments), was never directed as an insult to Flash. The people in that community just like to attack anyone for any manner. I see people asking for honest help on that Web site and people just come right in and bash them.
Overall, I am not defending anything, I am just stating the ponit that half of you have no room to speak about criticism. If your comments were of a positive or building nature (like one comment I have seen) then I wouldn’t have to respond. But instead they are one line notes about things you have little experience in. Look at Zach, he just said for himself, he’s only been designing for Web for 7 months!!!! Are you kidding me! Don’t critique for things you can’t even do yourself.
“The images with the “>” are there because the carousel viewer calls for images for the next and previous buttons.”
Sorry, I just read this, just to help you out — you can use any text as a trigger, as long as it contains the correct class that is defined in jQuery — it can be text. Just a tip! :)
human Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
@ patrick
It’s probably best you not submit your work to public galleries if you can’t stomach feedback (regardless the quality). Sure, some people here might be unqualified to critique your work, but I’m sure lots are. So how about you chill out. You sound like a petulant child.
To respond, I said I’m inexperienced in web design, as in html and coding, actually building them. But, I know design, and the difference between what looks good and what doesn’t. I said nothing about the functionality of your site, and if I did then yes, you could say that I have no room to talk. But all my comments have only dealt with the way it looks. I feel that the look of your site is too plain. I like minimalism, but only when it’s done in an elegant way. I don’t find your site very elegant at all and nothing about it is really memorable. And like I said, I’m still new at actually building websites, but I know enough to critique what one looks like. And that’s what I’m doing, critiquing what yours looks like. It’s just my opinion, take it as you will. And lastly, I can understand that you would just think I’m ignorant and don’t know what I’m talking about because I’m inexperienced, but there are plenty of other good designers here commenting that are saying some of the same stuff. I’m sure at least one of them has enough experience for you to take their opinion seriously.
Amazing how many different views of quality exist here. Even more amazing (or alarming) is the manner in which people express their opinion. I think this thread has proved a couple things to me:
Website design and the opinions of them are no different than our tastes in art/movies/food/sex/drugs/music//life/people…you catch my drift. I like movies that don’t require me to think (I do enough of that in my life), others might like mind-boggling puzzles. Folks, this is absolutely the beauty of the human race. Embrace it!
Unfortunately, differing opinions can also result in the above posts. A bunch of smack talking between people that have forgotten how to interact with each other because of differing opinions (or the fact that they can hide behind their screens). I love a good debate, but something several of you should learn is that the best way for your critique to be heard is to provide 2 compliments (no matter how small) with your 1 critique. It says to the designer “great job on these things” but “here is one thing you can do better.”
So, per the request of one poster, this week’s challenge is to take the time to genuinely review other websites, find 2 things you liked and 1 thing you think can be done better. THEN, articulate your opinion in a manner that has NO SARCASM, NO ARROGANCE and PLENTY of SINCERITY.
Sorry to those folks that do this well, you’re just caught in the cross-fire. I appreciate and value YOUR feedback. The others have a lot to learn about human interaction.
Interesting how you make yourself sound so much better and more mature…then ruin it all by finishing your post with an insult. Hypocrisy is evil my friend. I would suggest joining the MindSet Game to learn more about yourself.
I do mean my comments with sincerity. And I did say the site was nice. It’s a “safe’ design if anything. I even said I like what the site is about. But when talking about the actual design of the site, comparing it to the other sites on BWG, I would call it average. It’s really just a very basic website. He really threw the first punch saying I basically don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m just trying to defend myself and the points that I made. I’m not trying to belittle the designer, the comments I made where just my opinions. And sorry to follow in human’s footsteps and end my mature comment with an insult, but you’re making the mindset game thing sound sort of cult like. It’s weirding me out.
Glad to hear you were being sincere, it’s often difficult to hear tone of voice via the web without using those fancy :) LOL. Not to get on a tangent but with all this technology out there, a cheesy :) is the best we got. Anyway, there is always a way to defend your position that doesn’t invite more attack (i.e. complimenting, removing insults, etc.) Difficult to be the bigger man and not fight fire with fire, believe me, I know.
And yes, the MindSet Game addresses these negative human traits (in this case, the fighting instict). Certainly is meant for those that are ready to evaluate themselves with honesty and begin the process to be the best person they can be. Maybe it’s a little “Tony Robbins”, LOL, I realize that. But I hope it does gain a following, the more people that can get committed to the weekly challenges the more good things people will do for themselves and for eachother.
I read your Web site, it’s a really great attempt at building your own personal brand. I love your effort, but I also noticed you said your just out of school. Have you had any experience inside on an office setting? Because a lot of the things Creator is talking about, is purely situations you will be exposed to in an office setting. You denied to put yourself in the shoes of the maker, or make constructive comments with educated reason. I mean, I can go on, but I think that’s enough. What the Creator is giving you insight to is professionalism, and it’s what your lacking right now. The reason your ending in a negative comment is because you are frustrated. Frustrated that you cannot think of the right words to communicate your thoughts, or the reason why you have not been chosen as a person who has put effort forth as a “Web site” — if i had to give you some direction, I would say that Web design is a thing all in it’s own, having knowledge in “design” is too generic of a term. That would be like me saying, “I like cars.” Approach the Web as a new format, learn about visual learning curves, grid layout for web, user experience, proportionate design, and something we all lack - copy writing.
Lastly, to everyone, I continue to state I am not defending myself, we are all too focused on being “channel surfers” where we give it a yes or no right away without really looking into the eyes of the customer and client relationship. These comments further prove the lack of contribution to Web design as an industry, and a lack of respect among others who have been in the industry longer. If we continue this way, we won’t have any industry any longer since everyone will feel as though “they can do our job.”
But, again, everything I says becomes fuel to the fire, that’s not the goal here. The goal is to inform, appreciate, share, and put the users back into reality.
Sorry about that, my post was long-winded and I wanted to make sure people read the entire thing. Specifically, I was trying to encourage folks to not use sarcasm…
Best of luck to you @Jamie, enjoy the rest of your weekend.
I’m really not frustrated at all. I apologize if what I say comes off as being rude. I’m just a sarcastic person, it’s how I approach any situation in my life. I don’t know if that would be considered a fault or not but I feel laughing something off is better than getting angry. Now I’m not saying if someone punches your mother that you just stand there, point and laugh. But if someone says something negative about my work, I understand that criticism comes with the job title, and I take it into consideration then go on with my life. And yes, I have worked in an office setting. The 7 months I’ve been doing web design is mainly because I got hired right out of school at a company as their web designer, based purely on the fact that they liked my design abilities, not because of my experience or lack thereof. I thought my comments were constructive but I guess not, so I apologize. But experienced or not, I’m merely speaking an opinion, and that’s what criticism is. If I were in the shoes of the designer of this site, I would feel that it’s lacking, but maybe that’s just my inexperience talking. And I understand web design should be approached in a different way, but that doesn’t mean you throw all other aspects of design out the window. A website geared on selling or promoting a product or service should be aesthetically pleasing just like any other form of advertising. The whole look of the site is what a visitor is going to notice long before they notice or bother to read what the site is about. You get the visitors attention with the look, then you keep them there with the content, not the other way around. And @creator, I mean no disrespect. Like I said, I really do like what your site is about. I’m strictly talking about the look of the site, I just feel it could be better, don’t read so much into it. :)
I will not be taking the Creator-recommended sandwich criticism approach, because of my silly, idealistic hope that grown-ups do not need artificial ego-stroking in order to properly determine what is worthwhile and what isn’t. I also find your lectures about basic human communications to be fairly ironic given that the tone of your writing is roughly the voice I would use to address a young child. I’m no expert on basic human communication, but I’m guessing that it includes less smugness, generally speaking.
I’m a fairly frequent reader of this site, but only an extremely occasional poster. When I do post, it’s generally limited to criticism. Were I to have a site posted here, my sincere hope would be for honest, considered criticism, and that’s what I try to provide. The criticism is not just for the site’s creator; for all I know, they never even see it. It’s also for the visitors who treat this site as opportunity to evaluate work and gain insight into effective and ineffective technique.
There is no surer marker of immaturity than the I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I approach to defending your work. As if technical skill were the deciding factor in the validity of a critique. How many restaurant critics do you know who moonlight as professional chefs? Has Roger Ebert ever lensed a film? Not all criticisms are valid, but a mature professional simply reads a critique, takes what he can from it, and discards the rest.
Patrick, here is my critique of the site. I hope it’s useful to you, but if not, I won’t lose any sleep. My biggest problem is this: the typography is weak. In a highly visual site, that fact might be masked. But the minimalism you’re shooting for here doesn’t give it anything to hide behind. 90% of the site is rendered in an unattractive and frankly hard-to-read italic. At least Lucida has a true italic — it’s a step up from an oblique — but if you’re going to italicize the whole damn thing you might want to think about at least using a serif. As an aside, your use of the same type scheme on your own studio’s site suggests at best a certain preoccupation, and at worst a lack of imagination.
The line-height is too loose to give good color and continuity between lines, the vertical rhythm is nonexistent, and the sizing and styling of the headers looks arbitrary. The top navigation type looks frail and does not invite clicks.
There’s nothing wrong with your two-column layout, and the actual header image is solid if uninspiring. If you fixed the type you’d be onto something, but since — as you observed earlier — the site is built around this content, it means you haven’t got a whole hell of a lot. Funny how that simplicity sword cuts both ways.
Kola Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Patrick, mah man, you should get lessons on how to handle criticism. Relax, man. Learn to accept the fact that you can’t please everybody. The more you try to defend yourself, the more people will not wanna stop.
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 1:59 am
LOL@Daniel’s comment.
@Patrick:
You should be happy people bother commenting. When I started… more than 10 years ago I believe, I had no one around to ask “is this good? what’s wrong? something is missing, but what is it?”.
A lot of people think “oh you lot are just trashing others, blah blah blah”.
If that was true, then why do the majority collectively praise great sites? Shouldn’t the comments reflect the green eyed monster’s personality and trash the best sites, because they are the biggest threat to each individual’s business?
Learn to listen to critique. Finding out the problem is a step to finding out the solution.
So to take my statement as an example: I said the site lacks personality - so how do you solve that? Study how to create brand personality (you could start by checking out Futurebrand actually).
You also simply cannot disregard a comment by somebody who is “new”. That’s like disregarding a client’s comments (because they are even more “new”).
Learn to listen, and don’t take things too personally.
Well this is an interesting set of comments :). I read most of them, just weighing in my opinion:
I personally believe, as others have mentioned, that there is a little too much text in the wrong places. When I browse sites I like to know exactly what the site is for, and usually that can be achieved in a brief single sentence description. Because the homepage has a lot of text, my brain chooses to ignore it - I want to know what the site’s about before I read several paragraphs of potentially useless text. So I skip to the next page in the menu with the hope of a brief description, more text, and again. Even the About Page is a little too much for me to want to read.
I think the problem for me is that there needs to be a clear, concise summary of what the site is, as soon as you open the homepage. I only explored further pages because the site was featured here (I was half hoping to open a subpage and see something incredible ;-) ). If I’d found this site through Google, within a couple of seconds I would have left, having no idea what it was about.
Having said that, if you know what the site’s for and you’re a returning user, the design is actually very beautiful. The more I look, the more I appreciate the typography and the sidebar boxes. The header is very sophisticated and clean, and I particularly like the footer - worth mentioning that the briefest best description of the site was in the footer.
I do have a problem with the ‘Suggest a Task’ contact form. Your input boxes align with the left edge of the site wrapper, and the input labels are extended on the left of that. I’m on a 23″ monitor so I can see the labels, but if you decrease your browser window, the labels disappear out of view, so a small minority of users may never see the labels. As well as being a big usability flaw, aesthetically I don’t really like it, even on a big screen. Everything else on the site is within your central column wrapper, and this just seems like an after thought.
Anyway, I’m done. Thanks for the debate, I enjoyed reading it. Best of luck with your site in the future!
I would say the site is reasonably well designed but not quite worthy of best web gallery. It’s not badly designed, it’s just okay, there’s nothing particularly amazing about it.
It certainly works as a really nice looking website template, I think, however, that the content needs a lot more design applied to it. As it is for a game, the minimal approach is not the right one. There should be more focus on drawing me in to play the game along with short sharp snippets of text explaining the game and how it works.
In other words, this site spells B-O-R-I-N-G. Nobody wants to read copy that’s long like a college thesis. Most especially for a game site, it’s dull and lifeless - like a gum you’ve been chewing for 48 hours!
Thank you to Best Web Gallery, themindsetgame.com being highlighted has already added 41 new registered players and counting. This might seem small but the site is still young and I consider this a huge success that’s worth having a glass of wine over.
I will try to reduce the wording this weekend, and make the meaning of the game more evident. That’s good feedback, thanks gent’s!
yeah Says:
April 1st, 2009 at 8:27 pm
@zach or whomever created the site
One thing is for sure, you got a hell of a lot of comments flowing. That should tell you something. Just take what everyone has said and filter out the garbage and apply what you have learned to your next project.
I think it’s a nice site, plain, but nice. It achieves it’s goal I think.
As far as getting listed here… I’ve never gotten a site listed here and I submit them all the time, it’s personal preference, and everyone likes their own style of design. Lots of people say I use tons of cliche’ in my design, and I disagree with alot of them because I think minimal design with large text is a fad and somewhat boring…
Everyone likes different things, and I design my brand towards a target demographic–I’m not selling my product to swiss-trianed type designers… therefore, huge fonts, and miniml design aren’t going to cut it for me.
There are plenty of sites in this gallery that are GREAT. I’m sure there’s a place for this somewhere in it.
Zach Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 9:53 am
This is pretty plain :/
Matt Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Yeah, I’m sorry, no offense. But, there’s nothing unique or special about this site.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Hey guys, sorry you feel that way about the work. It was suppose to be a very simple Web site, due to the fact that it was all about the content. The text is the most important part, and there is a lot of it. So simplifying and showcasing was the ideal strategy. Sorry about it not being “unique” — but I think it clearly communicates the idea of the Web site, and I hope that’s why it was featured. Cheers!
Jamie Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 10:06 am
It’s a very nice site! But I must also question why it’s here.
Aaron Irizarry Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 10:29 am
great site… simple is beautiful…
bryant Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 10:33 am
simple, clean, elegant - good work!
Michael Castilla Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 10:34 am
The site is here because it’s a beautiful piece of work. Just because there aren’t any shiny buttons or there’s no fancy JavaScript, doesn’t mean it’s not worthy of being showcased here. It has great typography, it’s clean, and most importantly, it’s perfect for what the site is trying to get across.
Jessica Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 10:42 am
I really like the layout, I think it should feel a little more like a game though. Like a flash card with the task of the day. I think the “game” would feel more rewarding if it was more interactive. :)
Jared Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I wanted to like this site and be able to stand up for its simplicity but I came across some issues…
Lengthy text, no introduction or how to play on the homepage, and lacking a good call-to-action anywhere on any page.
I have nothing against the simplicity and cleanliness of the site, but honestly I had no idea of who the site was intended for or how to get started for about 4 minutes.
This of course is just one viewers opinion. Take as you will. Best of luck.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
@Jared
The 24 point font saying, “How to Play” in the header wasn’t clear? LOL
Adrian Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Would really love to know how this site got on here and mine didn’t. heh….odd.
Mason Sklut Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
There’s nothing that special about this site other than it’s great management of the color GRAY.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
@Adrian
I really like the use of grass and wood grain, gives me that eclectic 2001 style I love. Great job!
Jamie Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
@Michael Castilla: I’m not looking for all the beeps and whistles, but what I am looking for are sites that have taken a unique approach in their design and build. I can list a dozen sites that are similar to this example. That is not to say that it is poorly designed! It is certainly clean and the typography is wonderful. But it’s not unique.
Additionally, I broke the nav when resizing the copy.
Zach Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
@Michael, Patrick
Yea I agree with Jamie. Best Web Gallery is a site that’s supposed to display unique and innovative design. If the only reason it’s being showcased is because of the content then I think it’s here for the wrong reasons. I’m a huge fan of minimalism but I’m not really seeing anything that is unique and stands out on your site. It’s nice, don’t get me wrong, but I just don’t see anything special about it. I do like what the site is about though.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
@Zach
Read the about page man — you don’t even know what this Web site is about, here is what it states —
“Best Web Gallery is an inspirational gallery site where we collect a wide range of quality design websites (Flash & CSS). What is quality design means to us?”
@Jamie
The nav break is a bug, thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Sorry Zach, here is the finishing statement:
“Quality Design = Visual + Technical + Creativity”
Zach Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
@Pat
Well yea, you’re pretty much reiterating my point. This site exist to showcase inspirational, quality design. Now I like your site and what it’s about, but I wouldn’t go as far as to call it “inspirational, quality” design. Good content, but average design.
Denis Efanov Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
The design is bad, very bad, font is not supported.
If i do this work, then i lost a clients:)))
Jamie Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
@Denis: You’re all sorts of crazy.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
@Zach
I don’t mean this in a bad way, but I just don’t see how someone could say work is average, when they create Web sites with 7pt font and almost 700 pixels of white space in between projects and in the footer. Then using an image with the “>” (arrow) sign that could be done with text. Now, don’t get me wrong, not trying to beat you up, I just don’t think there is room to say “average.” I’ve browsed around, you make negative comments about a lot of people’s work.. That’s not going to get you far. Sorry you feel this way about our average work.
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 12:04 am
@Patrick Algrim:
Most of the people who comment here are pretty clued in. Fairly clued, at least. When a great design pops up (e.g. BBH), everyone agrees and says “wow, this is great”, with one or two people nitpicking the small details (myself included).
Now, when a lot of people say your design doesn’t work, instead of defending it and explaining it, listen to the critique, take it and stride and do better next time.
You are designing for the viewer, not for yourself. And if your viewers say “no thanks”, then the design has failed. Simple as that.
Frankly speaking, the site is neat, but lacks any personality. In fact, it’s quite forgettable. I opened it, looked at it, and was immediately bored by it. A good number of people said pretty much the same thing.
All the technical details are meaningless if the site doesn’t catch people’s attention, because if nobody is looking, nobody will care what you did code-wise.
P.S. The footer of the site says “P41 Studios”. If that’s your company, I kindly suggest that you change your logo icon. It’s a “P” version of Futurebrand’s logo, one of the BIGGEST brand identity companies in the world.
I opened P41 in one tab, and opened Futurebrand in the tab text to it. I mean only the best for you when I say that you can clearly see the connection.
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 12:05 am
to clarify my last sentence above:
The favicons of the two logos (P41 and Futurebrand) look like brother and sister. That is not a good thing.
Geoff Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 2:46 am
Didn’t you start a thread on QBN a couple weeks back complaining about Flash?
Zach Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 3:16 am
@Pat
Well yea, I’ve learned coding and have been making sites all of about 7 months, so I’m still getting the hang of it. How long have you been building sites? Because it seems like you’re also just getting the hang of it. With that being said, I may be new to web design but I’m not new to design. I know the difference between what looks good and what looks bad. And apparently so does everyone else commenting.
And just to clarify, the spaces are there because I used a smooth scroll to navigate through my site and I only want one element to be viewed at a time on the page. If you know a better way of pushing an element down of the screen so only one at a time is in view, without having a large padding between them, then by all means, educate me. The images with the “>” are there because the carousel viewer calls for images for the next and previous buttons.
Zach Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Your next weekly challenge should be “How to handle criticism.”
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 11:03 am
@Geoff:
If your comment was intended for me, I need to clarify two things:
1) I don’t post on QBN.
2) and I am a supporter of Flash.
Now if you were intending it for somebody else, then just ignore me.
yeah Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
not a bad site. i’ve made a ton of websites that are content oriented without to many images for javascript. Good job man
Geoff Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Sorry Dude, it was directed at Pat.
Jared Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
@Patrick Algrim
Wow, you spend way to much time trying to defend your site. Just sit back and listen to the feedback. If you’re site is doing its job then you shouldn’t have to be explaining it to everyone.
Creator Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Amazing how many different views of quality exist here. Even more amazing (or alarming) is the manner in which people express their opinion. I think this thread has proved a couple things to me:
Website design and the opinions of them are no different than our tastes in art/movies/food/sex/drugs/music//life/people…you catch my drift. I like movies that don’t require me to think (I do enough of that in my life), others might like mind-boggling puzzles. Folks, this is absolutely the beauty of the human race. Embrace it!
Unfortunately, differing opinions can also result in the above posts. A bunch of smack talking between people that have forgotten how to interact with each other because of differing opinions (or the fact that they can hide behind their screens). I love a good debate, but something several of you should learn is that the best way for your critique to be heard is to provide 2 compliments (no matter how small) with your 1 critique. It says to the designer “great job on these things” but “here is one thing you can do better.”
So, per the request of one poster, this week’s challenge is to take the time to genuinely review other websites, find 2 things you liked and 1 thing you think can be done better. THEN, articulate your opinion in a manner that has NO SARCASM, NO ARROGANCE and PLENTY of SINCERITY.
Sorry to those folks that do this well, you’re just caught in the cross-fire. I appreciate and value YOUR feedback. The others have a lot to learn about human interaction.
Creator Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Oh and by the way, I love this website. It has done for me exactly what I wanted it to and on a very fair budget. Of course, there several things that can be done differently with more time, money, etc.
Either way, the world needs more websites that help improve our spirits. I hope you all take the time to read a couple of the challenges, perhaps even join the game. It’s easy to knock it, but have you tried it? Good Luck
Jared Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
That’s the problem. Your site is so uninspired, that it doesn’t even challenge me to read it.
I just wanna leave as soon as I have opened it. Sorry.
kompanzasyon Says:
March 28th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Thank you my friend
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Ok to all, first, I am not defending my work. I am standing up for my work to people who don’t have room to give criticism. I don’t know SHIT about fashion design, so I am not going to go to a D&G fashion show and start critiquing the clothing. Anything personal I have said about the users here are because I have gone to other works and seen the negative comments you have made about EVERYTHING. Even you dudeydudedude.
About the Futurebrand thing, I actually didn’t even know of this company, and if you are building the relationship of using circles, you are really stretching some things my friend. That’s like saying Apple and Intel are the same company because they make computers.
@Geoff - it’s easy to jump on a bandwagon but it’s not easy to make a change right? The QBN thread that I read over which included a team member of mine (making the comments), was never directed as an insult to Flash. The people in that community just like to attack anyone for any manner. I see people asking for honest help on that Web site and people just come right in and bash them.
Overall, I am not defending anything, I am just stating the ponit that half of you have no room to speak about criticism. If your comments were of a positive or building nature (like one comment I have seen) then I wouldn’t have to respond. But instead they are one line notes about things you have little experience in. Look at Zach, he just said for himself, he’s only been designing for Web for 7 months!!!! Are you kidding me! Don’t critique for things you can’t even do yourself.
DONE.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 11:51 am
“The images with the “>” are there because the carousel viewer calls for images for the next and previous buttons.”
Sorry, I just read this, just to help you out — you can use any text as a trigger, as long as it contains the correct class that is defined in jQuery — it can be text. Just a tip! :)
human Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
@ patrick
It’s probably best you not submit your work to public galleries if you can’t stomach feedback (regardless the quality). Sure, some people here might be unqualified to critique your work, but I’m sure lots are. So how about you chill out. You sound like a petulant child.
Zach Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
@Pat
Thanks for the tip about the buttons.
To respond, I said I’m inexperienced in web design, as in html and coding, actually building them. But, I know design, and the difference between what looks good and what doesn’t. I said nothing about the functionality of your site, and if I did then yes, you could say that I have no room to talk. But all my comments have only dealt with the way it looks. I feel that the look of your site is too plain. I like minimalism, but only when it’s done in an elegant way. I don’t find your site very elegant at all and nothing about it is really memorable. And like I said, I’m still new at actually building websites, but I know enough to critique what one looks like. And that’s what I’m doing, critiquing what yours looks like. It’s just my opinion, take it as you will. And lastly, I can understand that you would just think I’m ignorant and don’t know what I’m talking about because I’m inexperienced, but there are plenty of other good designers here commenting that are saying some of the same stuff. I’m sure at least one of them has enough experience for you to take their opinion seriously.
Creator Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Amazing how many different views of quality exist here. Even more amazing (or alarming) is the manner in which people express their opinion. I think this thread has proved a couple things to me:
Website design and the opinions of them are no different than our tastes in art/movies/food/sex/drugs/music//life/people…you catch my drift. I like movies that don’t require me to think (I do enough of that in my life), others might like mind-boggling puzzles. Folks, this is absolutely the beauty of the human race. Embrace it!
Creator Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Unfortunately, differing opinions can also result in the above posts. A bunch of smack talking between people that have forgotten how to interact with each other because of differing opinions (or the fact that they can hide behind their screens). I love a good debate, but something several of you should learn is that the best way for your critique to be heard is to provide 2 compliments (no matter how small) with your 1 critique. It says to the designer “great job on these things” but “here is one thing you can do better.”
So, per the request of one poster, this week’s challenge is to take the time to genuinely review other websites, find 2 things you liked and 1 thing you think can be done better. THEN, articulate your opinion in a manner that has NO SARCASM, NO ARROGANCE and PLENTY of SINCERITY.
Sorry to those folks that do this well, you’re just caught in the cross-fire. I appreciate and value YOUR feedback. The others have a lot to learn about human interaction.
Creator Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
@human
Interesting how you make yourself sound so much better and more mature…then ruin it all by finishing your post with an insult. Hypocrisy is evil my friend. I would suggest joining the MindSet Game to learn more about yourself.
Good Luck
Zach Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
@creator
I do mean my comments with sincerity. And I did say the site was nice. It’s a “safe’ design if anything. I even said I like what the site is about. But when talking about the actual design of the site, comparing it to the other sites on BWG, I would call it average. It’s really just a very basic website. He really threw the first punch saying I basically don’t know what I’m talking about. I’m just trying to defend myself and the points that I made. I’m not trying to belittle the designer, the comments I made where just my opinions. And sorry to follow in human’s footsteps and end my mature comment with an insult, but you’re making the mindset game thing sound sort of cult like. It’s weirding me out.
Jamie Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
@Creator: International CAPS week?
Creator Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
@Zach
Glad to hear you were being sincere, it’s often difficult to hear tone of voice via the web without using those fancy :) LOL. Not to get on a tangent but with all this technology out there, a cheesy :) is the best we got. Anyway, there is always a way to defend your position that doesn’t invite more attack (i.e. complimenting, removing insults, etc.) Difficult to be the bigger man and not fight fire with fire, believe me, I know.
And yes, the MindSet Game addresses these negative human traits (in this case, the fighting instict). Certainly is meant for those that are ready to evaluate themselves with honesty and begin the process to be the best person they can be. Maybe it’s a little “Tony Robbins”, LOL, I realize that. But I hope it does gain a following, the more people that can get committed to the weekly challenges the more good things people will do for themselves and for eachother.
Thanks for the feedback bud.
Patrick Algrim Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
@Zach
I read your Web site, it’s a really great attempt at building your own personal brand. I love your effort, but I also noticed you said your just out of school. Have you had any experience inside on an office setting? Because a lot of the things Creator is talking about, is purely situations you will be exposed to in an office setting. You denied to put yourself in the shoes of the maker, or make constructive comments with educated reason. I mean, I can go on, but I think that’s enough. What the Creator is giving you insight to is professionalism, and it’s what your lacking right now. The reason your ending in a negative comment is because you are frustrated. Frustrated that you cannot think of the right words to communicate your thoughts, or the reason why you have not been chosen as a person who has put effort forth as a “Web site” — if i had to give you some direction, I would say that Web design is a thing all in it’s own, having knowledge in “design” is too generic of a term. That would be like me saying, “I like cars.” Approach the Web as a new format, learn about visual learning curves, grid layout for web, user experience, proportionate design, and something we all lack - copy writing.
Lastly, to everyone, I continue to state I am not defending myself, we are all too focused on being “channel surfers” where we give it a yes or no right away without really looking into the eyes of the customer and client relationship. These comments further prove the lack of contribution to Web design as an industry, and a lack of respect among others who have been in the industry longer. If we continue this way, we won’t have any industry any longer since everyone will feel as though “they can do our job.”
But, again, everything I says becomes fuel to the fire, that’s not the goal here. The goal is to inform, appreciate, share, and put the users back into reality.
Cheers fella’s.
Creator Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
@Jamie
Sorry about that, my post was long-winded and I wanted to make sure people read the entire thing. Specifically, I was trying to encourage folks to not use sarcasm…
Best of luck to you @Jamie, enjoy the rest of your weekend.
James Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Very simple its like a template from wordpress.
Zach Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
@pat
I’m really not frustrated at all. I apologize if what I say comes off as being rude. I’m just a sarcastic person, it’s how I approach any situation in my life. I don’t know if that would be considered a fault or not but I feel laughing something off is better than getting angry. Now I’m not saying if someone punches your mother that you just stand there, point and laugh. But if someone says something negative about my work, I understand that criticism comes with the job title, and I take it into consideration then go on with my life. And yes, I have worked in an office setting. The 7 months I’ve been doing web design is mainly because I got hired right out of school at a company as their web designer, based purely on the fact that they liked my design abilities, not because of my experience or lack thereof. I thought my comments were constructive but I guess not, so I apologize. But experienced or not, I’m merely speaking an opinion, and that’s what criticism is. If I were in the shoes of the designer of this site, I would feel that it’s lacking, but maybe that’s just my inexperience talking. And I understand web design should be approached in a different way, but that doesn’t mean you throw all other aspects of design out the window. A website geared on selling or promoting a product or service should be aesthetically pleasing just like any other form of advertising. The whole look of the site is what a visitor is going to notice long before they notice or bother to read what the site is about. You get the visitors attention with the look, then you keep them there with the content, not the other way around. And @creator, I mean no disrespect. Like I said, I really do like what your site is about. I’m strictly talking about the look of the site, I just feel it could be better, don’t read so much into it. :)
Creator Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
@Zach
Good man, well said. Thanks, hopefully the battle can end now. LOL. Still, I like that I have 48 comments on here. Bad press is still press, right :)
Have a good end to the weekend, because tomorrow is back to the grind! Poo.
Zach Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 12:08 am
I concur.
Daniel Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 12:58 am
I will not be taking the Creator-recommended sandwich criticism approach, because of my silly, idealistic hope that grown-ups do not need artificial ego-stroking in order to properly determine what is worthwhile and what isn’t. I also find your lectures about basic human communications to be fairly ironic given that the tone of your writing is roughly the voice I would use to address a young child. I’m no expert on basic human communication, but I’m guessing that it includes less smugness, generally speaking.
I’m a fairly frequent reader of this site, but only an extremely occasional poster. When I do post, it’s generally limited to criticism. Were I to have a site posted here, my sincere hope would be for honest, considered criticism, and that’s what I try to provide. The criticism is not just for the site’s creator; for all I know, they never even see it. It’s also for the visitors who treat this site as opportunity to evaluate work and gain insight into effective and ineffective technique.
There is no surer marker of immaturity than the I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I approach to defending your work. As if technical skill were the deciding factor in the validity of a critique. How many restaurant critics do you know who moonlight as professional chefs? Has Roger Ebert ever lensed a film? Not all criticisms are valid, but a mature professional simply reads a critique, takes what he can from it, and discards the rest.
Patrick, here is my critique of the site. I hope it’s useful to you, but if not, I won’t lose any sleep. My biggest problem is this: the typography is weak. In a highly visual site, that fact might be masked. But the minimalism you’re shooting for here doesn’t give it anything to hide behind. 90% of the site is rendered in an unattractive and frankly hard-to-read italic. At least Lucida has a true italic — it’s a step up from an oblique — but if you’re going to italicize the whole damn thing you might want to think about at least using a serif. As an aside, your use of the same type scheme on your own studio’s site suggests at best a certain preoccupation, and at worst a lack of imagination.
The line-height is too loose to give good color and continuity between lines, the vertical rhythm is nonexistent, and the sizing and styling of the headers looks arbitrary. The top navigation type looks frail and does not invite clicks.
There’s nothing wrong with your two-column layout, and the actual header image is solid if uninspiring. If you fixed the type you’d be onto something, but since — as you observed earlier — the site is built around this content, it means you haven’t got a whole hell of a lot. Funny how that simplicity sword cuts both ways.
Kola Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Patrick, mah man, you should get lessons on how to handle criticism. Relax, man. Learn to accept the fact that you can’t please everybody. The more you try to defend yourself, the more people will not wanna stop.
dudeydudeydude Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 1:59 am
LOL@Daniel’s comment.
@Patrick:
You should be happy people bother commenting. When I started… more than 10 years ago I believe, I had no one around to ask “is this good? what’s wrong? something is missing, but what is it?”.
A lot of people think “oh you lot are just trashing others, blah blah blah”.
If that was true, then why do the majority collectively praise great sites? Shouldn’t the comments reflect the green eyed monster’s personality and trash the best sites, because they are the biggest threat to each individual’s business?
Learn to listen to critique. Finding out the problem is a step to finding out the solution.
So to take my statement as an example: I said the site lacks personality - so how do you solve that? Study how to create brand personality (you could start by checking out Futurebrand actually).
You also simply cannot disregard a comment by somebody who is “new”. That’s like disregarding a client’s comments (because they are even more “new”).
Learn to listen, and don’t take things too personally.
Matt Dempsey Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 5:25 am
Well this is an interesting set of comments :). I read most of them, just weighing in my opinion:
I personally believe, as others have mentioned, that there is a little too much text in the wrong places. When I browse sites I like to know exactly what the site is for, and usually that can be achieved in a brief single sentence description. Because the homepage has a lot of text, my brain chooses to ignore it - I want to know what the site’s about before I read several paragraphs of potentially useless text. So I skip to the next page in the menu with the hope of a brief description, more text, and again. Even the About Page is a little too much for me to want to read.
I think the problem for me is that there needs to be a clear, concise summary of what the site is, as soon as you open the homepage. I only explored further pages because the site was featured here (I was half hoping to open a subpage and see something incredible ;-) ). If I’d found this site through Google, within a couple of seconds I would have left, having no idea what it was about.
Having said that, if you know what the site’s for and you’re a returning user, the design is actually very beautiful. The more I look, the more I appreciate the typography and the sidebar boxes. The header is very sophisticated and clean, and I particularly like the footer - worth mentioning that the briefest best description of the site was in the footer.
I do have a problem with the ‘Suggest a Task’ contact form. Your input boxes align with the left edge of the site wrapper, and the input labels are extended on the left of that. I’m on a 23″ monitor so I can see the labels, but if you decrease your browser window, the labels disappear out of view, so a small minority of users may never see the labels. As well as being a big usability flaw, aesthetically I don’t really like it, even on a big screen. Everything else on the site is within your central column wrapper, and this just seems like an after thought.
Anyway, I’m done. Thanks for the debate, I enjoyed reading it. Best of luck with your site in the future!
Cheers,
Matt
RIch Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 8:02 am
I would say the site is reasonably well designed but not quite worthy of best web gallery. It’s not badly designed, it’s just okay, there’s nothing particularly amazing about it.
Steve K Says:
March 30th, 2009 at 8:54 am
It certainly works as a really nice looking website template, I think, however, that the content needs a lot more design applied to it. As it is for a game, the minimal approach is not the right one. There should be more focus on drawing me in to play the game along with short sharp snippets of text explaining the game and how it works.
Denis Efanov Says:
March 31st, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Сайт - говно!
Pooty Tang Says:
March 31st, 2009 at 10:27 pm
In other words, this site spells B-O-R-I-N-G. Nobody wants to read copy that’s long like a college thesis. Most especially for a game site, it’s dull and lifeless - like a gum you’ve been chewing for 48 hours!
Creator Says:
April 1st, 2009 at 7:27 am
Thank you to Best Web Gallery, themindsetgame.com being highlighted has already added 41 new registered players and counting. This might seem small but the site is still young and I consider this a huge success that’s worth having a glass of wine over.
I will try to reduce the wording this weekend, and make the meaning of the game more evident. That’s good feedback, thanks gent’s!
yeah Says:
April 1st, 2009 at 8:27 pm
@zach or whomever created the site
One thing is for sure, you got a hell of a lot of comments flowing. That should tell you something. Just take what everyone has said and filter out the garbage and apply what you have learned to your next project.
Like I said man you site isn’t bad at all.
Jamie Says:
April 2nd, 2009 at 10:07 am
@Creator - That certainly is a huge success! And btw, one could only be so lucky to get this much feedback - positive or not! Good stuff.
tim Says:
April 6th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
I think it’s a nice site, plain, but nice. It achieves it’s goal I think.
As far as getting listed here… I’ve never gotten a site listed here and I submit them all the time, it’s personal preference, and everyone likes their own style of design. Lots of people say I use tons of cliche’ in my design, and I disagree with alot of them because I think minimal design with large text is a fad and somewhat boring…
Everyone likes different things, and I design my brand towards a target demographic–I’m not selling my product to swiss-trianed type designers… therefore, huge fonts, and miniml design aren’t going to cut it for me.
There are plenty of sites in this gallery that are GREAT. I’m sure there’s a place for this somewhere in it.
tim Says:
April 6th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Wow soo many typos and grammar errors. I apologize for that.
Creator Says:
April 12th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Update:
I reduced some of the wording on the “How to Play” and “About the Game” pages, plus reduced the wording of the challenges for future weeks.
Thanks for the insight guys!
Queens Air Conditioning Says:
April 14th, 2009 at 1:28 am
I really like this design. It’s got a great color scheme and i like it’s cartoonish nature. The clouds remind me of creativity.
Kristen Says:
April 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Simple, yet elegant. Room of course for additions, but what site doesn’t? Great job.
kailoon Says:
May 22nd, 2009 at 2:36 am
Hmm… Sad to see this here. But the saddest thing is mine was rejected…
http://kaloon.com
кaмycя Says:
May 31st, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Хорошая статья, как и все предыдущие. Буду теперь и в дальнейшем следитьза вашим блогом.
Алексей Says:
July 28th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Точно! Это точно всем пригодится.
kinozalvip Says:
September 29th, 2009 at 7:18 am
Ейей уж…
Нетбук Says:
November 9th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Accidentally came across your website. Great resources. Thanks.
SpaceGeo Says:
November 19th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Thanks for the article. The blog was very helpful.
Gadgets Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:49 am
Accidentally came across your website. Great resources. Thanks.
Hypno Says:
November 28th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Cool site mate!
Chevrolet Says:
December 2nd, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Great resources. Thanks.
Геодезия Says:
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Great resources. Thanks.
Map Says:
December 19th, 2009 at 5:06 am
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Адвокат Says:
February 7th, 2010 at 8:35 am
А продолжение по теме будет?
Бухгалтер Says:
February 7th, 2010 at 8:37 am
Интересная тема, спасибо автору, только вот коментариев спамерских много
Gloryhole Says:
February 24th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
We truly liked this work.